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"killing women fetish phenomeon" (news article)
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Michelle



Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 549

PostPosted: Oct Thu 27, 2011 2:49 pm    Post subject: "killing women fetish phenomeon" (news article) Reply with quote

I usually keep abreast on news regarding women and politics, and stumbled upon this article. It actually highlights my site Chokechamber, along with Deadskirts, and most other producers in the death fetish community like PKF, Psycho-Thrillers, Necrobabes (to name a few). Interesting read! Wondering if we should be concerned and cautious, or proud of our industry growth and visibility?

Moderator's Note. News Article was taken down but here is a copy..

"The Woman-Killing Industry"
Elect Women Magazine
The Woman-Killing Industry
October 18, 2011 | Opinions

(Written by James A. Haught.
Haught is editor of West Virginia’s
largest newspaper, The Charleston Gazette,
and also is a senior editor of Free
Inquiry magazine.)


An editorial by James A. Haught - Here’s an odd psychological phenomenon that should make women uneasy: Some men get erotic thrills from seeing nude young females killed, shot, stabbed, pierced by spears and arrows, etc. A remarkably large Internet industry has arisen to serve this craving.

Scores of Web sites feature thousands of professional-grade videos and pictures of attractive women gunned down in showers, punctured in knife fights, hanged from rafters, run through in sword duels, strangled in bed, shot by snipers while sunbathing, impaled on stakes, sacrificed on altars, harpooned by spear guns, bayoneted as POWs — you name it. Computer-generated special effects make the action realistic. Even cartoons, sketches and especially digital art scenes depict this “snuff” fantasy.

The woman-killing array is disseminated through sites with names like DeadSkirts, FemmeGore, FemmeFatalities, NecroBabes, Cuddly NecroBabes, Dead Sexy Women, Fatal Fantasies, KillHer Productions, Gladiatrix, Crucified Women, Psycho Thrillers, ChokeChamber, Dark Fetish Network, Drop Dead Gorgeous, and so forth. Others have generic names like Progressive Art Project, Eyewitness Production, PKF Studios, Alpha 7 Productions and Jafa Entertainment. DeadSkirts calls itself “Your Fantasy Female Death Fetish Site.” Dark Fetish advertises: “The best in horror erotic movies — over 18,000 hours of content.” CineDeath is subtitled “Home of Movie and TV Female Demise.” A few sites mix X-rated copulation with the murder, but killing women is the essential point. Most display free samples and previews. Some videos are recopied onto YouTube.

The volume is amazing. PKF boasts more than 800 digital videos filmed since 2006, plus a backlog of earlier works. Catharsis Video offers 698 short movies plus 746 “photo play” layouts. Gabrielle’s Fighting Girls has 168 videos and 89 photo plays. Both Wicked Works Productions and Annabelle’s Fantasy have 158 films. Stranglenail has 151. Bodybag Necromedia has too many to count. DeadSkirts has 28,000 registered discussion board members, many of whom send each other links to their favorite scenes.

Enormous time, effort and expense are invested in the industry. Great numbers of young female performers “play dead” before cameras. Profits evidently roll in from men who pay to see women killed. There’s even a Snuffie Awards competition, in which 300 different producers enter their best gore for judging in various categories. The trophy, naturally, displays a nude woman with an arrow entering her.

I discovered this realm by accident. I’m an old newspaper editor who has written nine books, including a novel about the legendary Amazons of Ancient Greece. While promoting it, I found sites named Amazon-Warriors.com, Deadly Amazons, Sexy Amazons, Sexy Latin Amazon, etc. — all selling brief movies of half-nude Amazons killing each other, with great attention paid to their arrow-riddled, sprawled, convulsing bodies.

(In Ancient Greek sculptures and ceramics, and later in Renaissance paintings, Amazons always were portrayed fighting Greek soldiers — but this new genre shows Amazons killing Amazons.)

The Amazon sites led me to other woman-killing outlets. None of the little movies has much plot. They’re just five- or ten-minute scenes of attractive young women, usually undressed, dying violently. Obviously, there’s a commercial market for this material, presumably among men who derive pleasure from watching females die (or pretend to die).

The Freudian symbolism of naked women being penetrated by swords, spears, daggers, arrows and bayonets is obvious — and when the videos involve bullets, the guns usually have long silencers that look phallic. Psychologists should have a field day with this phenomenon.

Overwhelmingly, the imagery displays young women as sexual objects for male entertainment — not as individuals with personalities.

One producer of these films has been the center of Canada’s longest-running obscenity trial. Donald Smith, who calls himself “Dr. Don,” created death movies of his wife. Then he advertised for models in Winnipeg newspapers. He made many quickie films and posted them for sale on a Web site which said its purpose was “to show beautiful women getting killed.”

Canadian police investigated in 2000. Smith and his wife were charged with obscenity. When the case came to trial in 2002, counts against the wife were dropped. The defense contended that the movies didn’t fit the legal definition of obscenity because no sex occurred in them.

The defense presented an expert witness, film professor Barry Grant of Brock University, Canada, who declared that Dr. Don’s videos were little different from horror scenes in modern “slasher” movies shown in theaters and sold in video stores. Dr. Grant testified that grotesque killing has been part of cinema since silent days. He told the court:

“Alfred Hitchcock’s ‘Psycho’ (1960), the pivotal movie that changed the direction of all horror films to follow, brings sex, violence and death together in the famous shower murder scene. … Exploitation films tend to focus on the human body, particularly the female body, as the site of horror. This is true of cannibal films, gore, splatter or meat movies…. Slasher films typically feature psychotic males who set about systematically killing an isolated group of young people in increasingly gruesome ways, with the torture or pursuit of the female characters given extended treatment….

“Mr. Smith’s work focuses on female victims, and in this it is all too typical of the exploitation horror form of filmmaking I have referred to. Many of these films are readily available in Canada from local video stores, mail-order companies and online retailers. … Since they are short, Mr. Smith’s works are not stories or narratives, but merely events that unfold before the camera. … Mr. Smith has posted his work on his website. In the last few years, the internet has become both a legitimate and significant site for film promotion and self-promotion in the film industry.”

Despite the professor’s testimony, a jury convicted Smith. He was sentenced to probation, banned from the Internet, and fined $100,000.

The sentencing judge, Helen Pierce of Ontario Superior Court of Justice, wrote that Dr. Don’s videos had “the potential to change attitudes toward women, cause psychological harm to anyone who had previously been a victim of sexual violence, and could do serious psychological harm to adolescents.” She continued:

“Mr. Smith uses film and special effects enhanced by computer editing to make the visual materials. In them, women in a state of nudity or semi-nudity are shot, stabbed, stalked, executed by bow and arrow, or shown in combat with swords and knives…. The undue exploitation of sex and violence directed at women is a poison in our society. It comes to us increasingly in films, literature and on the Internet. It has become acceptable and increasingly graphic entertainment…. This poison threatens to overrun our conviction that the individual has dignity and worth.”

Judge Pierce noted that Dr. Don made plenty of money from his “poison.” He had no occupation, yet his family lived in a lavish home and enjoyed a yacht. Testimony indicated that 2,000 people (presumably all men) paid $30 each for passwords to his Web site within a 15-month period.

Dr. Don appealed the conviction, and a higher court ordered a new trial. He was convicted again in 2008, appealed again, and the interminable case seems to have no end.

“Equal Justice Under Law” is inscribed above the U.S. Supreme Court entry. Does it mean that all similar sellers of woman-slaughter films should be prosecuted — or that Dr. Don was unfairly targeted?

Britain’s Parliament made a faltering attempt to outlaw snuff films. An “extreme pornography” amendment banned depictions of “injury to genitals or breast, or death.” But in the law’s first test in 2011, prosecution of a Staffordshire man who downloaded woman-killing videos from Drop Dead Gorgeous fizzled when a jury ruled him innocent.

Both the American Psychiatric Association and the World Health Organization define “sexual sadism” as a mental disorder, and the specialty has a publication, the Journal of Sexual Aggression. But such specialists focus almost entirely on violent criminals who attack women and children — not on voyeurs who relish watching make-believe enactments.

Various scholars, such as Dr. Grant of Brock University, have written about female victims in horror films. But their analyses address only full-length features presented through public theaters, television movie channels and video stores — long stories with elaborate plots and many characters.

Many books and commentaries have been written about pornography, even brutal sexual materials in which women are bound, tortured or gang-raped. But as far as I can learn, this report that you are reading is the first ever written about the little-known, half-private industry of snuff videos and Internet picture displays that serves only one purpose: to show attractive young women dying violently. The online porn world is gigantic: 400 million pages by one count, most of it crude and gross. Death fetish sites are a disturbing fringe.

If I were a woman, it would make me nervous to know that some men get erotic excitement from watching females being killed."


End
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traveler



Joined: 20 Apr 2010
Posts: 204

PostPosted: Oct Thu 27, 2011 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

His obvious disdain and judgmentalism are cause for concern. He clearly doesn't understand that it's about FANTASY deaths, not real, which is clearly stated here on deadskirts. He doesn't seem to want to understand, he just wants to judge.

On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what psychologists would have to say about it after a clinical study, just out of curiosity.

I particularly liked this line:

"Overwhelmingly, the imagery displays young women as sexual objects for male entertainment — not as individuals with personalities."

So what? Porn is also like that. He wrote that as if it's unique to the fantasy death fetish.
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mikedark



Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Oct Thu 27, 2011 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read it and felt compelled to leave this message:

I understand your concern. Believe me, if I were you I'd be a little curious, and a little freaked out, about the phenomenon as well. But as someone who has this particular fantasy, let me assure you that that's all it is, a fantasy. I in no way hate you, or any woman for that matter. I tend to have more problems with other men than I ever do with women. You are beautiful creatures, capable of things most of my half of the race isn't capable of, namely the ability to carry children, and the patience and empathy to raise them the right way. My fetish has nothing to do with hate. I am not sure exactly what it is or why I have it, other than the fact I know my brain is wired a little abnormally from that of most people, and that's how it is for most people who are genuinely fetishists. There are real psychos out there, but don't confuse them with the vast majority of people in this community. We enjoy fantasy violence, we do not actually enjoy real mayhem and murder and almost always find people that committ such acts repugnant. I would also not condemn the young women who pose and act for us. Most of them are young women looking to break into the mainstream porn scene and using our community as a stepping stone to that goal. The death fetish movies tend to be short, light on dialogue, and heavy on action. This allows actresses to do a lot of them in a very short amount of time, and gain a lot of on-site experience very quickly, while making fast money for the ride up because our stuff always sells, because the community is so small (though growing, as the internet allows more people to be open about themselves) and so supportive of our producers. I can guarantee you that you have nothing to fear from us. You can still think we're freaks. That's your prerogative. We aren't here to hurt you though.

What do you think?
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JohnM



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PostPosted: Oct Thu 27, 2011 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikedark,

I would not comment. Looking at the site, it gets very little views. Scanning articles before and after show that there are little if no comments.

The site does not have a feel of openness, but agenda. And, the writer seem to only want to judge rather then understand. There is nothing you would be able to say otherwise. Some people cannot separate what they see in fantasy from reality. It is obvious this persone believes they are one and the same despite how ridiculous that sounds. I am sure she feel that people who watch war movies want to get up and go fight in real war. Understanding this separation of key in a modern society, but unfortunately, some don't and that is why we can say we live in a free country, but not really be free at all.

Commenting, no matter how it comes across will only fuel that agenda and probably direct more attention to us.

And to answer Michelle---no, I suspect we don't want the attention.

JohnM
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Samson



Joined: 01 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Oct Thu 27, 2011 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good find, Michelle!

mikedark, you might want to check the byline for the article -- it was written by a man. Your response seemed targeted at a woman and the author might be a bit worried about you saying you "tend to have more problems with other men than I ever do with women."

To be honest, I didn't find this article to be particularly well researched. If it were, the author would have known that this wasn't nearly the first article written on the subject. Not even the first one posted online.

To his credit, it is more current and comprehensive than most in that it mentions more of the producers/websites in the industry rather than just focusing on the most well known (or notorious, depending on your point of view). Still, it wouldn't have taken more than a couple of hours to grab his list of names and quotes.

It's been 9 days since the article was published and there's been no response from that website's regular readers, nor has it been picked up by larger media outlets that might want to exploit the topic for it's potentially salacious nature. Left alone, I don't see it going much further than this.
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heirophant



Joined: 09 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Oct Thu 27, 2011 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also find it more than a little telling that the author only speaks of snuff as a male fantasy. No mention is made of female members or contributors to the sites mentioned. The author is clearly trying to paint snuff fantasy as an exclusively male realm, removed from and potentially threatening to real women
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Michelle



Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 549

PostPosted: Oct Thu 27, 2011 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the main controversy here? The fact that the content we produce show naked women in violent situations, or that men are sexually aroused by them?

Here's my bottom-line… if a beautiful, naked woman, is stabbed in a slasher horror film (a genre quite popular in both the mainstream and fetish media ) it's no one's business but my own, if my stimulation to the movie is erotic, rather than fear-driven. Who decided that the rule of thumb is that if I get scared, it's a horror film, and it's ok to show in theaters; But if I get off on it, then it's porn, and dirty and should be censored?

Aside from the multi-million dollar budgets, famous directors, and big studio names behind such films, like "Hostel, Saw, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Last House on the Left, and other gore-heavy flicks, etc…"I find very little artistic difference among movies like those, and our media.

To be honest, I get aroused by some of those mainstream movies too, but I wouldn't go as far as categorizing them as porn. Yet, by definition, pornography is writings, drawings, visual media, etc., designed to stimulate sexual excitement. Since I was turned on, should those films be labeled "adult" and suppressed too?


(Btw... I think John M is right. Let's not comment on that author's article. Maybe he'll just go away. Rolling Eyes)
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Geno



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Oct Thu 27, 2011 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samson-- No I would not excuse this Samson as not being serious. The fact that now one responded may must mean they don't want to get involved with this taboo sexual "snuff" talk in any way.

Michelle--- You can not compare what you do to the multi dollar budgets of big directors and producers. They have who movie with all it large complex content and story lines and professional trained actors. If the only sold the female death scene in their movies, they would never recover the millions of dollar they put into it.

Your little couple hundred dollar productions, or even a $1,000 can be recover through a few sales. When people buy your films Michelle the only reason they are buying them is because of the death scene. The cheap sets, the poor acting, the bad lighting, the shaking camcorder , and sily dialouge, is all out weight by the pretty woman playing dead in your productions.

When anyone buys a film that only has a given fetish in it, depending on what it is, it will raise a red flag in "normal" people who don't want to understand.

If I buy a video of a man tying up a nude woman and tickliing her feet with a feather, most peope would find the acceptable, even though that only has that fetish in that video. But if I buy a video of you strangling a woman and then throwing a bucket of ketchup on her nake body to simulate a death scene, many people are going to vicious false conclusions about me for buying it, and you for producing it.

Still thanks for posting. I was unaware we being singled out by the some of the press.

Sincerely Geno


Last edited by Geno on Oct Thu 27, 2011 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Michelle



Joined: 10 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Oct Thu 27, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Geno said:)
(Michelle--- You can not compare what you do to the multi dollar budgets of big directors and producers. They have who movie with all it large complex content and story lines and professional trained actors. If the only sold the female death scene in their movies, they would never recover the millions of dollar they put into it.

Your little couple hundred dollar productions, or even a $1,000 can be recover through a few sales. When people buy your films Michelle the only reason they are buying them is because of the death scene. The cheap sets, the poor acting, the bad lighting, the shaking camcorder , and sily dialouge, is all out weight by the pretty woman playing dead in your productions.)


(Michelle response:)
I don't think we're discussing the same thing here. I'm not suggesting our tawdry little productions compare to big studio films, and go head to head with the likes of Lions Gate or Warner Brothers. There's no contest there! What they pay for their prosthetic make-up alone costs more than my entire company! So no. My movies with "ketchup blood" special fx and "shaky cams" as you said will most likely never give Quentin Tarantino a run for his money. But they were never meant to. LOL

However, what I was asking in my thread was simply this…

If I get turned on sexually from scenes from a mainstream horror movie, let's say "Last house on the left" for that disturbing rape scene between the lead actress and the killer, does that make the movie pornographic? After all, pornography by definition is media that stimulates sexual excitement right? If death fetish producers (like myself) re-created the same scene, added more storyline, and hired professional actresses, we would most likely still be classified as immoral, repugnant, and "adult." Question is why? It's all violent, and sexual right? I wouldn't want my 8 year old niece watching any of it... mainstream of fetish produced.
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Samson



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PostPosted: Oct Thu 27, 2011 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geno said:
No I would not excuse this Samson as not being serious.


I'm sure I did not excuse this nor say it wasn't serious, just that it wouldn't go any further because it didn't appear to be getting any attention.

Geno said:
The fact that now one responded may must mean they don't want to get involved with this taboo sexual "snuff" talk in any way.


I don't know what political blogs or news websites you visit, but I have read several in which the subject matter, no matter how disturbing or "taboo" in no way deterred people from expressing their (often irrational, impulsive and misinformed) opinion. And, yes, that includes "snuff" and the mainstream reaction to it -- media coverage of the UK's "extreme pornography" laws, for example.

You used both "may" and "must" in your sentence. I would agree with "may" but would not presume "must."

Frankly, I am more concerned now that the article appears to have been removed than I was that it had been posted in the first place.
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Michelle



Joined: 10 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Oct Thu 27, 2011 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samson said:
Frankly, I am more concerned now that the article appears to have been removed than I was that it had been posted in the first place.


Omg you're right! Why did they take it down? Very Happy

Moderators Note. We copied the article and it's back up on this thread only.
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Geno



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PostPosted: Oct Thu 27, 2011 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Samson I did not know it was taken down. I got my copy depending on who is interested. I will be glad to put up a few more excepts.

Michelle there is a big difference in the eyes of people who see a person buy a full movie with all is different elements from exicting sets, great acting, great dialouge , and good female Death scene, and exciting suspense plot that keeps you guessing.............

.........And some who would buy a download just because there one scene in the entire video that shows a naked woman being lined up against the wall and shot like a dog, with one to two lines to indicate what little sub-microscopic plot, it has.

Michelle you won't catch a the type of flack DeadSkirts catches if you change your name to Michelle Zombie and start making real movies with highly trained actress, complete suspenseful plots, good looking set, decorations, good cinematography and distrubution you movie for what it is, a mainstream movie.

As long as you are selling only scenes of Fantasy Female Death Scene after death scene , you are going to come off as creepy in the norms of society. I did not make up those rules of human nature, Michelle.


Geno
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slingshot



Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The sort of panic-riven hysteria reflected in this article is nothing new; it's a tiresome, worn out argument. The mingling of death and eroticism has been around for centuries. A survey of art history in painting and sculpture demonstrates this; there are numerous examples, such as Guido Cagnacci's "The Young Martyr" and Eugene Delacroix's "The Death of Sardanapalus." And there are numerous examples with dead male victims sensually and nakedly laid out as well. With the rise of the printing industry, death and eroticism in literature likewise proliferated, as in the work of de Sade and many others. In the twentieth century, when comic books, pulp novels and photonovels came on the scene, they also had their share of works dealing with erotic death. And of course movies, as far back as the 1934 film "Maniac," which featured pre-Hayes Code nudity and violence, have offered an abundance erotic death scenes. So it's no surprise that the internet should now be the latest medium that provides a niche for death and eroticism. It's an innate part of the human psyche with appeal to both men and women, and, as with fantasy portrayals of violence, sexual promiscuity, alcohol consumption, drug use, and other "vices," it's impact on influencing people's behavior in the real world is probably quite limited.
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JohnM



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, there are other things that have to be examined.

Logic.

First, lets look at the logic of fantasy films influencing people to do bad things.

Well, there are almost 7 BILLION people on the planet. At most, in the last 5-6 years, about 1000 different people have bought my movies.

So, the % of the world population that have gotten to experience them is .000000143%. The likelihood that any one of those individuals will go off and do bad things is probably a smaller number then that.

Of course, we all know, people don't do bad things because of movies. There have been millions of movies and other violent forms of entertainment media made with far more prominent delivery systems to humans, like Theatre, Cable, Satellite, DVD, Blue-Ray, iPod, DS, XBox, Playstation, On Demand, Streaming, etc. To get my movies, you have to jump through 67 hoops, down a cave, and take a right turn at Albuquerque.

And in all these years, after all the 100's of 1000's of crimes of the centuries, how many cases have been driven by "the killer was influenced by what he saw on tv or in media". I can't think of any. And even if a criminal wanted to go that defense, what does that say about them. Crazy. Right?

So no, I don't by it any more then we were seeded here by a bunch of Aliens that live in volcanoes.

Thanks,
JohnM
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Michael



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's the media and politicians that blame movies, afterall, at the time of eg... Jack The Ripper who carved up all the prostitutes in london's West End, what influenced him? I can see it now when he was caught "Why Did you do it"? reply.... "I just watched Psycho, that's what influenced me", so no... movies can't be blamed unless the media or politicians decide they do.

Its all fantasy and should be seen as such. Just my 2 cents worth.
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DaleCar



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually the article itself I think is remarkably fair. Though it seems to miss the fact that a fair number of women willingly participate and enjoy this fantasy. I think its fair to say that the authors portrayal of this as something that might make a lot of people that do not understand or like the phenomenum nervous. I think most of us understand that ourselves

Still. Lets hope no truly mainstream outlets pick this up. Mainstream recognition of this little niche can bring little good.

But I also see little that we can do as a group too hide. The only real hope is that the parties likely to take exception to this fetish are to busy with other things to pay attention

Dale
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NuclearWinter



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with DaleCar,
a quite disturbing article...no matter how many people actually read it.
It shows that we cannot hide our little parallel-universe from the rest of the world,
and it´s just that rest of the world who decides about "right or wrong", resp. "artist or criminal"...
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Geno



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnM--- I am all for meeting it head on and teaching non-believers through education and not number statistics. You can argue with the editor of Jame A Haught (Editor of West Virginia largest new paper) all day, but you will not change his mind or the mind of his millions of readers by claiming that we only represent 0.00007 percent of society with our fetish, or what ever you said. If we were serial killers, that fact we represent only a few micro percents of society is not going to calm non-believer's nerves, JohnM.

We have a responsibility as webmasters and producers to be able to explain this fetish instead of just bulldozing our way through horrified people. Are we waiting until some law pops up to stop us in our tracks? Maybe we should go after him JohnM. Drag his ass into a debate and explain it to him if he guts to take me on. :evil:

Right here, since day one, DeadSkirts has been a ground breaking message by allowing real news stories to be posted in which human being, included women are killed in real life on the Every subject board. Some our members with the fetish felt uneasy about me allowing that.

I try to calm our DS members fears by telling them they have the "Fantasy Female Death Fetish" and they aren't turned on by real killing of women. So let's show the world we can read a real life tragic story and not put, or have , any erotic comments introduce on that real life new article thread.

DaleCar said:
Actually the article itself I think is remarkably fair. Though it seems to miss the fact that a fair number of women willingly participate and enjoy this fantasy.


I was kind of suprised by how accurate most News Editor Haught's information was about past incidents in our community. He got that all right about the trial of Dr. Don. He name every major Fantasy Female Death site on the web, and left out some the smaller ghost towns.

However he did leave out a very important factor about women enjoying this fantasy. He also seem to want to stir up a panic by not emphasizing that is a fantasy only and the women are playing Dead.

Geno
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Farside



Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dark why don't you write another note and tell the author (yes a male) that many women enjoy the same fantasy or fetish. Of course many women enjoy porn as well.
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soling



Joined: 31 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would respectfully suggest that writing notes to the author, no matter how factual or reasonable, is unlikely to bring anything positive in return. Quite the contrary. It may bring you some sense of self validation, but the author already sees us as some kind of a threat and is unlikely to change his tune and think "these guys and gals are just enjoying some harmless fun....".

Unfortunately, the very fact that paraphilia is medically categorized as a psychological abnormality (rightly or wrongly) is going to lessen the value of your arguments in the mind of the critic.

Provoking a discussion in the media is only going to stir publicity which, presumably, we don't need!
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Phoenix



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, after this arcticle i feel myself approved to take down warbabes. Our fetish is so different compared to the "normal" world, most people are too scared of it.

Its simply to risky to run a (death fetish) website nowadays, and the risk will rise after such articles that opens the door to our little world wider and wider.

In germany you could get in jail if you provide material thats glorifying violence.
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knobarius



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The author has actually written a novel called "Amazon Moon," featuring a bare-breasted fighting female on the cover. 2kissing

I wonder what sort of female demise action it features? sad

Hmmm....

K
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DaleCar



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I was wondering that as well. I'd think he would have some personal interest in this subject. Unless they were all one peaceful group of Amazons.

Dale
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Farside



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phoenix said:
Well, after this arcticle i feel myself approved to take down warbabes. Our fetish is so different compared to the "normal" world, most people are too scared of it.

Its simply to risky to run a (death fetish) website nowadays, and the risk will rise after such articles that opens the door to our little world wider and wider.

In germany you could get in jail if you provide material thats glorifying violence.


Too bad they didn't have that law in 1932.
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Phoenix



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Farside said:
Phoenix said:
Well, after this arcticle i feel myself approved to take down warbabes. Our fetish is so different compared to the "normal" world, most people are too scared of it.

Its simply to risky to run a (death fetish) website nowadays, and the risk will rise after such articles that opens the door to our little world wider and wider.

In germany you could get in jail if you provide material thats glorifying violence.


Too bad they didn't have that law in 1932.


1933

germans = nazis, yeah, cool Rolling Eyes
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York



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That article made me feel strange...and also that if I write a story of a sexy lady killed I am a freak pervert ...if Stephen King does the same...he is a genius....and probably they make out a movie from it, getting money....

BTW...I can expect to find the author of that article dressed as a pretty maid or playing strange sex games at night as he blames us.... booo
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LTerry



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

knobarius said:
The author has actually written a novel called "Amazon Moon," featuring a bare-breasted fighting female on the cover. 2kissing

I wonder what sort of female demise action it features? sad

Hmmm....

K


My thoughts exactly. I suspect that he's probably been a member here at some point, and that he most certainly did not "stumble" upon this community.

His other publications seem to indicate that he's a conspiracy-theory crackpot, though that doesn't seem to prevent such people from being taken quite seriously, especially in American politics.
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Farside



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The plan was in play in 1932 for 1933. But Germans = Nazi.. well it doesn't = Tango Tango. I realize Germans are no longer massive supporters of Nazism, before and during the war they seemed to be but afterward, no one was. No one knew what was going on and no one had anything to do with it. Blaming the Germans for being Nazis? Thats so bigoted it's like blaming the Germans for starting WW II by invading Poland.. how unfair is that? Its like blaming Muslim fanatics for flying planes into the WWC. I mean it could have been a bunch of Nuns who did that right? I cant insult young fanatical Muslim youths by claiming they flew those planes there just because they did, any more than I can blame the Germans for accepting facsism as their govenment just because they did. Fair is fair, and being polictically correct can not wipe out history.
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York



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: "killing women fetish phenomeon" (news article Reply with quote

Michelle said:
I. Death fetish sites are a disturbing fringe.

If I were a woman, it would make me nervous to know that some men get erotic excitement from watching females being killed."[/color][/size]

End


well....reading again the article...apart the fact that I find inapropriate publishing the name of plenty of "private" sites..
the final statement is quite disturbing.... no way

This old chap depicts, or tries to depict these sites as a sort of "schools for apprentice assassins", leaving behind and forgetting that the fantasy world has always existed in different forms, in every mind.

Curious to know what is his own private "fantasy"... no way no way

ah ah...just found his pic on the web...and my first thought has been...."if I were a woman, it would make me already nervous looking at that pic...."
laugh


Last edited by York on Oct Fri 28, 2011 3:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Phoenix



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Farside said:
The plan was in play in 1932 for 1933. But Germans = Nazi.. well it doesn't = Tango Tango. I realize Germans are no longer massive supporters of Nazism, before and during the war they seemed to be but afterward, no one was. No one knew what was going on and no one had anything to do with it. Blaming the Germans for being Nazis? Thats so bigoted it's like blaming the Germans for starting WW II by invading Poland.. how unfair is that? Its like blaming Muslim fanatics for flying planes into the WWC. I mean it could have been a bunch of Nuns who did that right? I cant insult young fanatical Muslim youths by claiming they flew those planes there just because they did, any more than I can blame the Germans for accepting facsism as their govenment just because they did. Fair is fair, and being polictically correct can not wipe out history.


Yeah, and dont forget the russians in the stalin area, or the chinise while culture revolution... or maybe the americans that slaughtered nearly all native americans. Yeah, lets blame them too!

No, i am not more responsible for the WW2 or the holocaust then everyone else, because myself and nearly all other germans now alive didnt startet this bulls**t.
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DaleCar



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

getting a bit off the subject guys.

Dale
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egeek



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Till this day I'm still getting used to my own dark fantasies and how I get off on strangle scenes from movies. But there is far worse things in this world then dark fantasies. Real murders and people loosing their jobs. There will always be someone out there that writes a article that complains about something.
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amraam



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally i think the fact that he mentioned so many different methods and different producers/sites that he's obviously done more research than needed for someone who just "accidently" stumbled on a site involved this type of fetish.. or maybe he was already familiar with the fetish and could in fact be one that enjoys it as well. Even though the article itself seems somewhat negative.. it has a few points suggesting that people consider the other side as well.
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Nomad



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree with mikedark's comments on Oct Thu 27, 2011 6:11 pm - couldn't have put it any better yay

I had to comment because tonight there was a news report on a murder in the UK where the accused was found guilty. The report contained a few references to sites I knew about, and led to some very uncomfortable conversations with my wife who knows nothing about my fantasies (thankfully, after hearing her views on the matter!).

I honestly thought the reporter had found out about this article when it was first highlighted on the news, but it turned out to be completely unrelated. Still it makes me feel that no one in my circle of friends would understand about my fantasies (most, if not all would feel the same as the person who wrote this article).
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Julian



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the article:

Quote:
"The Freudian symbolism of naked women being penetrated by swords, spears, daggers, arrows and bayonets is obvious — and when the videos involve bullets, the guns usually have long silencers that look phallic. Psychologists should have a field day with this phenomenon."


Well, aren't we the clever little pop-psychologist? A little knowledge is, as they say, a dangerous thing.

Another dangerous thing: the sort of politician/commentator who condemns gays, denouncing them viciously, who is later revealed to be gay. Usually, they're just hypocrites, but another factor is at play:

This, in Jungian psychology, is called "projecting the shadow". We take the aspect of our psyche that we hate the most (subconsciously) and project it outwards onto someone or something else, and then denounce that entity for our own flaws.

Now, this guy may or may not be projecting, but he sure as hell isn't making any real attempts to get beyond the cartoon stereotype of the typical creator/user of this content.

He raises the amazon/amazon theme - the one which, he claims, introduced him to this subject...and then neglects to ask the next question: why the absence of males in this particular sub-genre? The absence of males in much of the material differentiates surely from the M/F material.

Also:

When I found out, in the late 90s, that there were quite a few women who were into the fetish, it came as something of a shock (and I'm quite sure that many of them are women, and have voice chatted with one). On Deviantart.com there is an entire group devoted to photos of girls who pose dead. If he's "researched" the subject as thoroughly as we think, then he's ignoring the existence of F/F content and female participants, or he's being deliberately misleading. Ignoring in Freudian terms would be termed "censorship", as in him unconsciously censoring that information in order to maintain his projected interpretation.

Now I'm no expert on Freud or Jung, but I hazard that I know a ***** little ***** more than him, which let's face it, wouldn't be difficult.

If the writer knew anything about Freud other than crudities about phallus substitutes, he might have seen fit to see this as a version of the death drive:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_drive

The deep desire to return to the inorganic, as Freud understood it.

In my case, there was an intense fear/fascination with death/oblivion from age 4, which morphed into a sexual fetish around puberty. Over the years, it's only become stronger. It wasn't so long ago that canting moralists like him were demonizing the gay community, so it's not too easy to find low-hanging fruit (excuse the phrase) when it comes to enforcing sexual prudery in the early 21st century.

I see he mentions my own favorite site, amazon-warriors.com. Olaf, it must be said, maintains a regular cast of very attractive women, who seem to really enjoy the shoots (I don't think you can fake that stuff, and anyone who's seen Mia Mane in his videos would be hard pressed to disagree). I'm guessing that they have no fears about going into the woods with Olaf to shoot amazon movies. Probably because Olaf is what he seems to be: a really nice guy with a pretty unusual fetish - just like me, and many/most of the people here.

I wonder would the writer of the article be able to make the same claim?
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StrangeDog



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!

Check THIS out friends!

I just went to the on-line book selling emporium amazon.com and looked up the novel "Amazon Moon" written by James A. Haught, the same individual who wrote the essay condeming our fantasy fetish that Geno posted above.

See:

http://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Moon-James-Haught/dp/1601451598/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319851992&sr=1-10

The on-line display at amazon.com for Haught's novel about Amazons includes an excerpt from the book that is several paragraphs in length.

***** And this excerpt describes the death of an Amazon warrior from an arrow shot through her heart by a male Greek warrior. Haught's description of the Amazon's violent death could hold its own with honor right here at out very own DeadSkirts Story Board!!! *****

HMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!! indeed!

Strange Dog
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mikedark



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if this should go in this topic or if it should be its own (if its the latter, I'm sure Geno will take care of it), but here's something I've been thinking about. As a musician, if I take my little erotic horror fantasies and put them to music, and get the product distributed by a well known indie label like Relapse or Earache, I can easily sell 250,000 copies per album. But if I were to make short films or stories about them, suddenly the outside world considers me a freak. WTF? What we do in this community is no different than what Cannibal Corpse does in their lyrics, and yet we aren't afforded the same level of artistic respect?
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Komov



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me quote a certain movie character:

"People scream 'evil' like a m*therf**ker, unless it's their own. Then it's cool".

BTW, I thought in most Western countries our fetish is like a "public secret" - everyone knows about it and us, people are afraid of us, but prefer to pretend that we don't exist, they don't talk about us, they don't persecute us, simply because we do no harm. After all, all these sites aren't illegal, right? Or have I been wrong? Is it that people would burn us at the stake if they were aware of our existence? confused
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mikedark



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think there'd be witch hunts against us. As you said, nothing we do is illegal. I think the fear is that if we have this fantasy, that means it's inevitable that we'll act on it, which of course is false, but whatever.
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Pennpaul



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 9:42 pm    Post subject: Not a factor Reply with quote

The article is interesting as a POV of a non-member of the community. I was unable to discern his purpose. It had interesting details, yet no valid research to back him up. The DrDon segment in particular was terribly flawed by lack of credible review of the trial details as well as the historical events. Plus there was no comment about similar canadien producers. Thus the article is tainted and a threat by inaccuracy.

As noted above, no mention of the female interests that are readily discernable by reading their many comments on DS and other sites.

Perhaps those sites and producers named in the article need worry about the impact of his POV.

4P
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JohnM



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PostPosted: Oct Fri 28, 2011 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Not a factor Reply with quote

Pennpaul said:


Perhaps those sites and producers named in the article need worry about the impact of his POV.

4P


I always worry.

But, my perspective uses history as a guide and so far history has found that people rather not pay much attention to us.

Since 1997, I can remember at least one scare 1-2 times a years of this nature, including a TV segment that mentioned names. That one was particularly unnerving.

But, we seemed to come out of it ok, and I suspect we will again.

Frankly, I feel as long as we keep out our community, i.e., those interested in this topic. If the producers make sure they only advertise within the community (4uclips was an example of what NOT to do). And, we maintain as always that this is fantasy and keep a good, positive attitude about what interests us. Second guessing what we enjoy is just counter productive and leads to bad feelings all around.

JohnM
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Darian



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PostPosted: Oct Sat 29, 2011 1:30 am    Post subject: You know what really happened (Humour)? Reply with quote

Here is how that article came to be:

An editor at a large newspaper is having problems with his computer, so he hands it over to the IT department.

Since he didn't clean up his computer thorougly before handing it over to the IT - guys, a technician stumbled across some "disturbing material".

The tech guy meets with the editor and he says "I'm a little concerned about some stuff I found on your computer".

The editor is a smart man, so he clears that misunderstanding right up: "That stuff... rhm.. ehh.. that's research for a piece I'm doing. I have researched that for months...".

So he opens his text editor and writes that very well researched piece, but removes it at first chance ;)

Jokes aside: I think any attention to our community is really scary. We all know that we are good guys, and that we're only dealing with fantasy. But still prejudice is hard to fight, and the prospect of being demonised or ridiculed surely isn't thrilling.

But then again, we have had a few scares over the years, and I am absolutely certain that I am not violating any local laws. But how great would it be if we could get rid of peoples prejudice and just be open about our fantasies...

PS: I think it should be clear that the Germans have fought hard to distance themselves from the past, and that Southern Europe would be in a poor state today if it wasn't for their generosity (And that's coming from someone who's country was occupied by the damn basterds - Twice :))

/Darian
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egeek



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PostPosted: Oct Sat 29, 2011 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its also like the scarlet letter angle. This same person who wrote this article probably has his own inner demons or skeletons in his closet. They would go and do or say something that is really bad. he may have wrote the article but he may not be a saint. a hypocrit.
Also horror directors that make horror flicks probably have horror fetishes themselves. Open mindedness is how movies get made. especially horror.
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mikedark



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PostPosted: Oct Sat 29, 2011 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not all that concerned myself. It's still a taboo subject to talk about in polite society, but I think we've all seen how much the community has grown, and continues to grow. Simply put, we're too big to be extinguished now, and we're a global community too. If these people think we're extreme, they should see what the Japanese are coming up with. Spend some time on Gurochan. You'll see things that will turn you on, and see things that you wish you could bleach out of your mind, often in the same thread.
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Komov



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PostPosted: Oct Sat 29, 2011 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darn right. Not to mention how many Ryona videos are there on YouTube.
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mikedark



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PostPosted: Oct Sat 29, 2011 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Ryona isn't always deadly. But yeah, there's a massive amount of people out there that find peril of all kinds, from simple bondage to full on guro, to be sexy. I like to think we're at the extreme end of the S&M spectrum, while light bondage is on the other extreme end. It's all based around the close relationship between pain and pleasure.
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Komov



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PostPosted: Oct Sat 29, 2011 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking about the Japanese art, listen to what this guy named Sato says about the making of the video game "Silent Hill 2":

!!!Silent Hill 2 spoilers warning!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCg-Wvs1VbY



Here's part of the script - in bold and underline are the parts that interest us:



[Fifth part's intro]

Psychological horror
------------------------------
Eros and Thanatos

[Game footage: James runs into the nurse monster]

Narrator: Silent Hill had another major strength in that it invented a new type of fear.

[Producer Akihiro Imamura comments]

Imamura: In Silent Hill 2, fear could be defined in terms of what you don't see makes you feel afraid. If you know that there is something around that you can't see you'll be scared, deep down.

[Game footage: James in the prison. Game footage: James meeting first monster under the bridge]

Narrator: But the creative people pushed their analysis much further. This feeling of psychological terror specific to Silent Hill 2 was the product of serious brainstorming about the human mind and heart.

[Sato comments]

Sato: Psychological horror has to shake humans heart deeply. Shaking peoples heart deeply means uncover peoples core emotion and core motivation for life. Everybody is thinking and concerning about sex and death. Everything. And if we want to scare or shake or touch the users or spectators, then we have
to think about sex and death deeply.


[Game footage: James runs into Pyramid Head before the fight with him in the apartments]

Sato: To make like a death scene. Like somebody died, or monsters died, or if you make that kind of scene... we tried to mix erotic essence. This is kind of a visual and a core concept.

[Various monster images are shown]

Narrator: You can see it in these images of dead nurses. With their short skirts and low necklines. You can see it in the images of disembodied legs, or in this suggestive scene.
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Mort DeAgne



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PostPosted: Oct Sat 29, 2011 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikedark said:
I like to think we're at the extreme end of the S&M spectrum, while light bondage is on the other extreme end


Over at the GIMP forun (replace this with " a rape and bodage forum" if GIMP is a rival board, Geno), we had a fun discussion of "lightweights" (no blood, no death, favorite toy = clothespin) vs "heavyweights" (blood by the bucket, death of course, favorite toy = chain saw). Most of the responders came down somewhere in the middle.

It might be fun to do a similar mutliquestion poll here: instant death vs prolonged, office wear vs nudity, blood vs no blood etc. I think most of us would, again, come down in the middle.

So even in this community there is at least one spectrum that we have our place on.
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Komov



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PostPosted: Oct Sat 29, 2011 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I myself am not into sadism. I dislike fantasy torture. Of course, it is better if fantasy death is painful to some degree, but I'm not turned on by torture by itself.
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Neceros



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PostPosted: Oct Sun 30, 2011 2:58 am    Post subject: Re: "killing women fetish phenomeon" (news article Reply with quote

Quoted from Wiki:

"Rape has accompanied warfare in virtually every known historical era.The Greek and Roman armies reportedly engaged in war rape, which is documented by ancient authors such as Homer, Herodotus, and Livy[citation needed]. Ancient sources held multiple, often contradictory attitudes to sexual violence in warfare.Rape in the course of war is mentioned multiple times in the Bible: "For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped..." Zechariah 14:2 "Their little children will be dashed to death before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked, and their wives will be raped.Isaiah 13:16"

In the near east, victorious armies often dealt in homosexual intercourse with the losers.

Roman military officers often used the young boys of defeated peoples for homosexual intercourse, a Roman Historian, Tacitus, noted this happening during the Revolt of the Batavi."

I have noted this before, always worth repeating.

The obvious conclusion, all this sexual violence in antiquity stemmed from all the movies , TV and video these ancients were watching.
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DaleCar



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PostPosted: Oct Sun 30, 2011 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neceros said:

Quote:
I have noted this before, always worth repeating.

The obvious conclusion, all this sexual violence in antiquity stemmed from all the movies , TV and video these ancients were watching.


I think your oversimplifying history. Before TV, movies, the internet. There was art and books. Before that Theater. Aside from a few dozen, hundred, surviving examples. In the majority. We have no idea what the ancient greeks, egyptions, mascedonians. Name your ancints were watching or doing. Certainly the romans got there violent tendencies in the arena. perhaps the theater as well. And a vilolent world. certainly every murder, rape act of brutality leaves its impression on bystanders.

Personally. I think my own interests came from TV. Watching James Bond, Conan the barbarian, Mat helm. I think seeing something at a certain age just makes it click.

So I think its very fair to blame media. But I also think that media's been there in one form or another since cavemen started to draw on walls. The farther back you go the less survives of what has been created.

This does not rule out violent people just being violent. Some people develope an interest. Others are born with it.

Dale
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mikedark



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PostPosted: Oct Sun 30, 2011 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Komov said:
I myself am not into sadism. I dislike fantasy torture. Of course, it is better if fantasy death is painful to some degree, but I'm not turned on by torture by itself.


I'm not always into prolonged torture either, depending on the method used (slow shooting or stabbing, hot. Hot coals burning off nipples? Not for me). But I still think we fall on the S&M spectrum because I do think death fetish is based on the relationship between pain and pleasure.
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CaptainA



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PostPosted: Oct Sun 30, 2011 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a little concerned about this. Politicians are always looking for an issue "to address". All it takes is one Dip to manufacture a problem, whether a problem actually exists or not.
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mikedark



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PostPosted: Oct Sun 30, 2011 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They've been trying to do away with Death Metal for 20 years. It hasn't worked, and only helped to make it more popular than ever. If anything, some dopey old fogey trying to do away with the community would just make us even bigger.
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Komov



Joined: 07 Jun 2009
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Oct Mon 31, 2011 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another quote regarding the relationship between sex and death, from the script of the video game "Silent Hill: Shattered Memories":

"Dr. K: Of course, the constant partner of sex, the other side of the same coin is... Death.
Sex is death. It's a leap into the void, the great loss of self. The tiger in space. A plea for annihilation. To deny sex, is to deny death itself."

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Neceros



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 1333

PostPosted: Oct Mon 31, 2011 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaleCar said:
I think your oversimplifying history. Before TV, movies, the internet. There was art and books. Before that Theater. Aside from a few dozen, hundred, surviving examples. In the majority. We have no idea what the ancient greeks, egyptions, mascedonians. Name your ancints were watching or doing. Certainly the romans got there violent tendencies in the arena. perhaps the theater as well. And a vilolent world. certainly every murder, rape act of brutality leaves its impression on bystanders.
Dale


Just how many books were there in ancient times?
Especially when 99.999999 percent of the population could not even read.
Even in the Greek and Roman world the number of people who had access to plays was minuscule.
99 % of the general population did not go to these things anyway.
Even the number of troubadours who presented The Iliad and Odyssey were minuscule.
The armies of the ancient world or even the criminals of ancient or medieval world were influenced literature and plays to an infinitesimal degree if at all!
Some of the most extreme torture and violence were committed by the Mongol invasions , and the Mongols disdained such things a literature and drama.
It's just plain ignorant to say ancient people came by their violent behavior by way of popular entertainment when such a very tiny fraction were touched by it.
It comes from inside the human psyche , if such things as literature, theater, film, video , comic books never existed deviant behavior would.
But the oral minority morons never understand this.
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DaleCar



Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 1681
Location: pennsylvania

PostPosted: Oct Mon 31, 2011 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neceros wrote

Quote:
Just how many books were there in ancient times?
Especially when 99.999999 percent of the population could not even read.
Even in the Greek and Roman world the number of people who had access to plays was minuscule.
99 % of the general population did not go to these things anyway.
Even the number of troubadours who presented The Iliad and Odyssey were minuscule.


I have no clue how many people could read back then. But in more recent times but still a long time ago for us. People paid to have the Maquis DeSade's books read to them.

And I think your estimates on how many greek and Roman people had access to plays is way underrated. Most greek cities of the city-State era had amphatheaters. And telling stories is the oldest entertainment of all, (well, next to sex. But you got to have something to do the other 23 hours of the day) . All these civilizations had there heroes, heroines, gods and godesses. Somebody told of there exploits.

How much has been lost. Many scholars talk about the vast loss of knowledge and manuscripts when the great library of alexandria burned.

In the end we have no idea how many plays were lost hundreds of years ago. And I haven't seen any census numbers for troubadours circa 1400 BC. Actually that sounds like a french name. So there may have been damn few in 1400BC. But you can bet there were storytellers.

Dale
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Neceros



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 1333

PostPosted: Oct Mon 31, 2011 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaleCar said:
I have no clue how many people could read back then. But in more recent times but still a long time ago for us. People paid to have the Maquis DeSade's books read to them.And I think your estimates on how many greek and Roman people had access to plays is way underrated. Most greek cities of the city-State era had amphatheaters. And telling stories is the oldest entertainment of all, (well, next to sex. But you got to have something to do the other 23 hours of the day) . All these civilizations had there heroes, heroines, gods and godesses. Somebody told of there exploits.How much has been lost. Many scholars talk about the vast loss of knowledge and manuscripts when the great library of alexandria burned.In the end we have no idea how many plays were lost hundreds of years ago. And I haven't seen any census numbers for troubadours circa 1400 BC. Actually that sounds like a french name. So there may have been damn few in 1400BC. But you can bet there were storytellers.
Dale


Let's cut to the chase, scientific studies have shown that people who exhibit really social damaging deviant behavior are not influenced by fantasy material.
If you are going to tell me a Neolithic person went into a cave and saw a painting of an animal being hunted and said to themselves "I am going out and rape and kill someone!"
Then that and five dollars will get you a cup of coffee.
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